Re: an old geezer running visual studio for the first time

I agree completely with Jeremy. A good programmer is definitely a control
freak, and wants to be in control of his/her app as much as possible. The
"training wheels" analogy is perfect. For beginners, these types of tools
can be the difference between getting started in ASP.Net and not getting
started at all. But they are hardly intended to be a substitute for real
hard-core programming, which is why the SDK has articles and tutorials on
such subjects as designing and building custom Server Controls, etc. Some of
the greatest aspects of Visual Studio.Net is that it can allow one to build
something quick and dirty in a short period of time, or it will allow the
developer to delve as deeply into the technology as one can go, all the way
down to assembler and MSIL if necessary or desired.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"Jeremy S" <A@xxxxx> wrote in message
news:ejj2gqDcFHA.3040@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Hi TB
>
> From cruising through your various comments in this thread I gather that
> you are very comfortable with the old school way to do things. One thought
> is to just stay there. Seriously. If you need to get stuff done, then
> might as well just stay where you are most productive (at least until you
> are comfortable with the new stuff).
>
> Now, the new way to do things will involve somewhat of a learning curve -
> but once you've traversed it, you'll be *way more* productive than you
> ever could have been with the old stuff.
>
> From your other comments it appears that you view ASP.NET and ADO.NET as
> somehow limiting what a developer can do - especially if the developer
> wants to "get down and dirty" and write some code. Not true at all. Much
> of what you have likely read is touting the "training wheels" that have
> been included in Visual Studio - like drag-and-droping DataAdapters into a
> visual surface. You should understand that most serious developers (at
> least the ones I've met) simply do not use such training wheels. You can
> ignore those and dive right into the code. When it comes to ADO.NET - you
> can actually write more code than you could have in classic ADO. Remember
> .UpdateBatch() in classic ADO? That actually writes a bunch of dynamic SQL
> under the covers for you that you never get to manipulate. ADO.NET
> actually gives you much more control and more granular control of inserts,
> updates, and deletes. I highly recommend to you another book "ADO.NET" by
> David Sceppa - Microsoft Press. A "must read" IMHO for anyone familiar
> with classic ADO moving to ADO.NET. Sceppa presents the new stuff and
> compares/contrasts it with classic ADO. Remember, ADO.NET is not simply
> the next version of classic ADO... it's a whole new way to interface with
> your data. And, to answer your particular question, yes - ADO.NET will let
> you work as easily with PHP as you can with SQL Server, Oracle, Access, or
> any other database or data store (even XML files).
>
> About the starter kits - I recommended the Commerce one because it is,
> IMHO, the most straight-forward; it shows you a lot of the nuts-n-bolts.
> This is on contrast to the Portal kit which shows some very cool stuff
> (like serving up an entire non trivial site through only one aspx page) -
> but it's stuff most projects likely won't need.
>
> -HTH
>
>
> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegroups@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:eaWTn63bFHA.3492@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Thank your very much for bothering to answer this "old newbie".
>>
>> I will follow your advice. Particularly I will desect some of the sample
>> projects on www.asp.net to learn how code-behind truly works. Actually it
>> sounds like an interesting concept, but I supose (without knowing
>> anything yet) that there are several degrees of code-behind depending on
>> how puritanic you are or how much time you have left to finish a job. I
>> guess that it also difficult for .NET developers to resist the temptation
>> to get dirty and throw in a bit of inline code here and there just to get
>> a project out of the door.
>>
>> I will also take a serious look at the book you suggest.
>>
>> Another question, now that I got you "on the line": Is it possible to
>> make VS.NET work perfectly / natively / transparently with MySQL?
>>
>> TB
>>
>>
>> "Jeffrey Todd" <Me@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:eM04AAsbFHA.1040@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> These 3 suggestions will hopefully help a lot:
>>>
>>> 1. Consider developing your aspx and ascx files in FrontPage,
>>> Dreamweaver, Notepad, or whatever is your favorite HTML and/or CSS
>>> editor - and limit your use of VS.NET to (1) all programming work
>>> (code-behind logic) and (2) launching you application for testing
>>> purposes. VS.NET 2003 most definitely NOT the place to write HTML - so
>>> no need for you to think about grid vs flow layouts. Reason being that
>>> VS.NET 2003 will rewrite your HTML for you - often with disastrous
>>> results. This link from a Microsoft insider explains:
>>> http://blogs.msdn.com/MikhailArkhipov/archive/2004/05/16/132886.aspx
>>> The upshot is that many of us use FrontPage or Dreamweaver for all
>>> HTML-specific work (i.e., ASPX and ASCX file development) and use VS.NET
>>> only for programming/code-behind work. The way I develop is that I keep
>>> a copy of Dreamweaver running at all times along side VS.NET 2003 - and
>>> switch between the two. One last point here is that VS.NET 2005 - due
>>> out in November or so - is expected to no longer have the HTML rendering
>>> and management issues that VS.NET 2003 has.
>>>
>>> 2. Get this book: Programming ASP.NET - by Dino Esposito - Microsoft
>>> Press. It puts everything in context - IMHO ideal for your situation.
>>> It's not a step-by-step tutorial, but it is more valuable because tells
>>> you how to understand ASP.NET.
>>>
>>> 3. Familiarize yourself with the starter kits at the following link:
>>> http://www.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=8&tabid=47. I'd especially
>>> recommend that you download and disect the Commerce starter kit. The
>>> starter kits are complete ASP.NET Web applications and include all
>>> source code - which is very readable and well-documented. The Commerce
>>> starter kit is one of the simpler - so it would be a good starting point
>>> as it incorporates many fundamentals.
>>>
>>> -HTH
>>>
>>> -JT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegroups@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Hi all:
>>>>
>>>> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish, then
>>>> please bear with me, or simply skip this thread.
>>>>
>>>> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual
>>>> upgrade of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to ASP.NET
>>>> / VB.NET.
>>>>
>>>> While the study of the language differences and all the new features in
>>>> .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit
>>>> shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual
>>>> Studio .Net (2003 edition).
>>>>
>>>> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e.
>>>> with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of
>>>> Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when
>>>> running the page against a local instance of IIS.
>>>>
>>>> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from
>>>> yellow pages to accounting programs.
>>>>
>>>> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where to
>>>> start.
>>>>
>>>> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to
>>>> programming, eliminating the need for external apps. During the past
>>>> couple of years I have developed my own little collection of helpers
>>>> which I use during development.
>>>>
>>>> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management
>>>> normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and
>>>> functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or
>>>> cut/paste - depending on the situation.
>>>>
>>>> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page
>>>> layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the
>>>> designed to be grid-based or flow-based.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different
>>>> files. I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions,
>>>> subs etc above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between <%
>>>> %> tags. This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET.
>>>>
>>>> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to move
>>>> to .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a book,
>>>> a tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a new toy
>>>> which apparently could improve my productivity.
>>>>
>>>> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been through
>>>> the same process would be most welcome.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> TB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


.

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