Re: newbie question

> I guess I've just become tired of running around. Time to stop calling
> myself a "programmer", but specialize into becoming a ".NET" programmer,
> while it lasts.. (know more and more about less and less, until we know
> everything about nothing).
>

You'll feel much better once you get into it. :)

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Lisa Pearlson" <no@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:eeSoKnuOFHA.4000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Convincing....
>
> "people in the Unix crowd are just not current regarding Microsoft."
>
> It's kind of hard to do I guess. C++ is my primary tool, and in my eyes
> the best thing ever for programmers. But I have programmed VB, Perl, PHP,
> Assembler, Python, COM, Java, etc. I've developed some for unix, but
> mostly M$ platforms, PocketPC, PalmOS, MySQL, T/SQL, Symbian.
>
> I guess I might have to stick to becoming a "VB" programmer, or ".NET"
> programmer and make one tool a career. Otherwise it's pretty damn hard to
> keep up with M$. I spend half my year learning new technologies, and get
> to apply it to 2 or 3 projects that year, and then I have to spend another
> 6 months learning the next thing that has come out.
>
> Who's looking for VB, VC++ or Classic ASP programmers anymore? I'm forced
> to keep up.. but I'm not getting enough time to earn back the investments.
> What do you mean cost saving? I have lost more than gained trying to keep
> up with all that's thrown at us, then marketed to customers so they all
> want it because they heard "it's the next big thing", and so we have no
> choice but to feed them what they ask for.
>
> I guess I've just become tired of running around. Time to stop calling
> myself a "programmer", but specialize into becoming a ".NET" programmer,
> while it lasts.. (know more and more about less and less, until we know
> everything about nothing).
>
> Lisa
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:u0z3KFtOFHA.4000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Hi Lisa,
>>
>> Your persepective is skewed by your experience. The programming stack has
>> grown since nearly day 1, with the invention of Assembler. Every time the
>> programming stack grows, somebody has something bad to say about it. But
>> there is a good reason why this is so. Productivity.
>>
>> As programming evolves (and it certainly DOES evolve), it becomes more
>> and more complex to do things which people ordinarily take for granted,
>> such as simply running more than one program at a time (which, as you and
>> I both know, is impossible). As no more than one program can run at a
>> time, the one program that runs all the time is the OS. It spawns threads
>> in its execution loop that make it look as if the OS is running many
>> programs all at one time. The complexity of this alone demands a
>> programming stack, an OS API, which Microsoft refers to as a "platform."
>> But of course, this is at the OS level. On top of this platform are
>> running all kinds of applications.
>>
>> The sheer size and complexity of this situation demands OOP. I once read
>> a book on Windows programming in C (not C++). Windows was originally
>> written in C, not C++, and was one big procedural app. Do you know how
>> many lines of C code it took to create a simple window? Hundreds. There
>> are all kinds of structures in there, and pointers, and messaging, etc.,
>> all of which had to be programmed into a gigantic loop. Obviously, things
>> were getting out of hand with procedural programming. Hence, OOP was
>> born.
>>
>> Now we are living in the next generation of programming. Again,
>> complexity dictates that we build another layer on the programming stack.
>> The .Net platform is an attempt to sove these inherent problems, such as
>> DLL Hell, Memory Leaks overlooked by programmers, etc. it works much like
>> Java, in that it is patform-independent, compiles to byte code, and
>> requires a JIT compiler to run, and for the same reasons. But it has a
>> significant advantage over Java: you can go as low-level as you need to,
>> when you need to. IOW, it's the best of both worlds, just as C++ didn't
>> REPLACE C; it extended it. C# doesn't REPLACE C++; it extends it.
>>
>> Now, all this talk about Microsoft bloatware is just old. Microsoft USED
>> to put out bloatware, and for reasons that I won't go ito here, but they
>> were temporary and legitimate. But Microsoft software hasn't been bloated
>> for years now; people in the Unix crowd are just not current regarding
>> Microsoft.
>>
>> In fact, the .Net platform provides one other thing that I didn't
>> mention: code consistency. When you use the Microsoft .Net stack, you are
>> using a standard set of classes, which most .Net programmers are familiar
>> with. This means less time ramping up to modify or extend an application.
>> And, as programmer time is the single most expensive cost of software
>> development, that's a GOOD thing!
>>
>> Microsoft has been underestimated since its inception. Come on in, the
>> water's fine!
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Lisa Pearlson" <no@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:upoKAssOFHA.4028@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Exactely.. it doesn't matter if it's C/C++/Java/PHP/ASP.. code is
>>> code.. no matter how you write your for/next loops.. the logic is the
>>> same, the syntax is different.
>>>
>>> But like in my post I write just before I read yours, learning CLR is
>>> indeed a very steep learning curve..
>>> I don't want to have to know, but have to understand, and be able to
>>> figure everything else out myself.
>>>
>>> I compared .NET to chinese and C/C++ to the latin alphabet.. with only
>>> 26 characters to learn, we can write everything we want.. chinese have
>>> one or more characters for whole words or sentences... which makes
>>> writing more efficient.. but only after you've become familiar with at
>>> least 3,000 characters, up to 50,000 or more.. and that's just not the
>>> way to go in my opinion.
>>>
>>> I want reusable words, not new characters.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:eUKFXbsOFHA.3668@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Hi Lisa,
>>>>
>>>> I think you would benefit from the freely downloadable .Net SDK:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=9B3A2CA6-3647-4070-9F41-A333C6B9181D&displaylang=en
>>>>
>>>> No, you won't have any trouble at all learning C#. With a few
>>>> exceptions, it's just like C++.
>>>>
>>>> What you WILL take some time to do is to learn the CLR (Common Language
>>>> Runtime Library). This is arguably the hardest thing to get familiar
>>>> with regarding .Net. There are just so many classes in there. Of
>>>> course, that's actually a GOOD thing; as the classes already exist, you
>>>> don't have to write as much custom code. Fortunately, the namespaces
>>>> and classes are organized extremely well.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> HTH,
>>>>
>>>> Kevin Spencer
>>>> Microsoft MVP
>>>> .Net Developer
>>>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>>>
>>>> "Lisa Pearlson" <no@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>> news:uEeHhMsOFHA.2748@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Thank you for your feedback. I really appreciate it, and I did not
>>>>> dismiss anything.
>>>>> I'm an experienced C++ programmer. I'm not worried about learning C#.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not expect people to support me in my .NET dislike or all other
>>>>> layers of abstraction, starting with COM. I understand the advantages,
>>>>> but not sure it needs to be that complex. If I wanted to to be
>>>>> affirmed in my dislike, I wouldn't be posting on a microsoft news
>>>>> server, but on a linux website.
>>>>>
>>>>> My sole purpose was to learn enough about .NET to know if it can be a
>>>>> better tool for the job.. (not only technically, but also market
>>>>> acceptance.. if customers want it, and maybe later want connectivity
>>>>> with other microsoft products, then using microsoft products is a
>>>>> better choice, even if I hate it.. I have to give what the customer
>>>>> wants. I'm accepting my miserable fate).
>>>>>
>>>>> At least I'm not dimissing .NET indefinitely.. For me to judge if it
>>>>> is the right tool for the job or not, I need to know enough about it
>>>>> to be able to make that judgement, and I don't know enough yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your response has helped me quite a bit.. and I am leaning towards
>>>>> using PHP has a draft, and then program a windows C++ application with
>>>>> ODBC. Perhaps even embed HTMLView so I can use the ease of web as well
>>>>> as power, flexibility and speed of C++.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not done learning about .NET yet though.. If you can't beat them,
>>>>> join them.. resistence is futile, we'll all be victimize by this
>>>>> monopoly. :-) owwwww
>>>>>
>>>>> "Dave Fancher" <eijitek@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>> news:0_ednchVhaEe4M7fRVn-rg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> For what you have described, ASP.NET doesn't sound like the tool for
>>>>>> you. You want a client side technology (ActiveX or Java?) that is
>>>>>> able to create and maintain a connection to a database. You don't
>>>>>> need ASP.NET for what you have described. I think a desktop
>>>>>> application is better suited for this application.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To fill you in, the way the event model works in ASP.NET is that each
>>>>>> control that triggers a server side event calls a client side
>>>>>> JavaScript function that sets the value of a couple of hidden fields
>>>>>> then submits the form (a standard HTML form with a runat="server"
>>>>>> attribute). There is another hidden field called ViewState that
>>>>>> allows for persisting values between server trips. Additionally,
>>>>>> each page follows a specific life cycle of events that handle code
>>>>>> specific to intialization, loading, event handling, rendering, and
>>>>>> unloading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For instance, if you have a Button WebControl (rendered as <input
>>>>>> type="button" ...>) that has a server side handler for onClick, the
>>>>>> button is also rendered with onclick="__doPostBack(...);" which sets
>>>>>> the hidden fields and submits the form. The .NET runtime (on the
>>>>>> server) checks the value of the hidden fields (including viewstate)
>>>>>> to determine the status of the page and executes the method that is
>>>>>> specified to handle the event.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The model used by ASP.NET allows for much more managable code not to
>>>>>> mention that is succeeds in isolating the logic from the UI code
>>>>>> (HTML) since, when done properly with code behinds (VS.NET default),
>>>>>> the HTML document (your aspx file) forms the layout for a class
>>>>>> ultimately derived from System.Web.UI.Page. With a code behind, you
>>>>>> define a class derived from System.Web.UI.Page. When an ASPX is
>>>>>> requested, the runtime instantiates a class derived from the class
>>>>>> defined in the code behind file.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If all your application needs to do is retrieve and edit database
>>>>>> records, you may be able to pull this off in a month but that
>>>>>> entirely depends on the actual complexity of the app. Overall, the
>>>>>> WebControls and HtmlControls are pretty straight forward. ADO.NET is
>>>>>> also pretty straight forward. Depending on your environment and
>>>>>> application needs though, security considerations (which it sounds
>>>>>> like you'll have from your issues over control) offer their own set
>>>>>> of complications. Of course, there are nuances to all of these
>>>>>> topics about which you should educate yourself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreeing with Scott M., IIS is easy to configure. I'm running six
>>>>>> ASP.NET apps and have development, testing, and production
>>>>>> environments set up for each of them. Very little configuration is
>>>>>> needed to properly configure IIS for an ASP.NET application.
>>>>>> Granted, IIS configuration is not done through config files but to
>>>>>> argue your point about Apache working "out of the box", you said it
>>>>>> yourself, "configure some options in a config file, ..., install PHP,
>>>>>> ... and off you go." How much does that really differ from "install
>>>>>> the .NET Framework, click a button or two to configure some options,
>>>>>> and off you go." In either case, you must still create the
>>>>>> application folder and tell the HTTP server where the application is
>>>>>> loaded.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for learning the .NET technolgies, learning a .NET language
>>>>>> shouldn't be a big deal. If all else fails you could even use
>>>>>> PerlASPX from ActiveState to allow you to use Perl instead of C#.
>>>>>> Sure, there are differences between languages in that some languages
>>>>>> offer features that other languages don't but the overall concepts
>>>>>> are the same and common constructs are only syntactically different.
>>>>>> No matter how it is written, a for loop is still a for loop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When push comes to shove and you're up against a wall, you need to
>>>>>> choose the best tool for the job. For your situation, it sounds like
>>>>>> you should stick with a tool with which you are already familiar. In
>>>>>> fact, your posts read as though you have already convinced yourself
>>>>>> not to use the .NET technologies for a variety of reasons that are
>>>>>> applicable in some cases and not in others. You seem to be dead-set
>>>>>> against using the .NET technologies and are looking for people
>>>>>> working in completely different environments with different needs to
>>>>>> either validate your concerns (further proving that .NET is not worth
>>>>>> your time) or to give you some irrefutable argument as to why you
>>>>>> absolutely must use .NET as opposed to the other tools at your
>>>>>> disposal. To reiterate, you must evaluate the needs of the project
>>>>>> and choose the tool that you believe will best meet those needs. If
>>>>>> you believe ASP.NET is the best tool, great, use it, otherwise use
>>>>>> something else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On a side note, if you're dismissing at least 80% of what you read,
>>>>>> it sounds like you may want to refine your search techniques or
>>>>>> perhaps you're simply disregarding too much...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good luck with your project.
>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>> Dave Fancher
>>>>>> http://davefancher.blogspot.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Lisa Pearlson" <no@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:%23B8LrZlOFHA.1396@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Thank you for your response.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I find that most of my time learning new stuff is wasted on
>>>>>>> searching for the right info.. and digging through 80% or more of
>>>>>>> useless chatter around it, yet having to read it all to know what is
>>>>>>> chatter and what is not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you're a good programmer, you can make applications robust and
>>>>>>> scalable without the .NET framework. But since .NET is advertised
>>>>>>> well and clueless customers want it, I'm pretty much forced to
>>>>>>> swallow this new technology which is yet again another wrapper
>>>>>>> around all these microsoft technologies, that I frankly dislike. One
>>>>>>> reason why I never liked VB. To much behind the screen wiring.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, I should be able to develop something within 1 month, and
>>>>>>> maybe fine tune things later.. doing the project will be like
>>>>>>> following a tutorial, where I have to search the net for clues as to
>>>>>>> how to take the next step. Best way to learn.. But pretty stressful
>>>>>>> when you have a deadline too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Away from my petty life, back to ASP.NET, you mention "event driven
>>>>>>> model".. I'm sure all this info is available on the net, but like I
>>>>>>> said, 80% of my time is wasted on searching for it, so this helps me
>>>>>>> alot..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Question:
>>>>>>> How should I understand event driven model in web applications? on
>>>>>>> client side, javascript can handle some events, everything else is
>>>>>>> usually done via form POST and parsing on the server side, using
>>>>>>> ASP, PHP or whatever.
>>>>>>> Do events on the client side get sent to the server? Via HTTP
>>>>>>> messages, or via DCOM bloat?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've found so many sources dealing with ASP.NET but none that just
>>>>>>> explain some of the basics of what ASP.NET is really all about. I've
>>>>>>> read upon some .NET stuff, and it seems little more than a thin
>>>>>>> wrapper around windows APIs to handle some garbage collection and
>>>>>>> such.. (to use api's you have to write your own wrappers
>>>>>>> sometimes.. reminds me of VB, where to do anything useful, required
>>>>>>> you to import half the windows api's.. so then why not use VC++
>>>>>>> instead, I always wondered).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lisa
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


.