Re: MS_POSITIONING="flowlayout"

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From: Scott M. (s-mar_at_nospam.nospam)
Date: 11/14/04 

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:00:48 -0500

"Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
news:OdxRTEeyEHA.3120@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> >You don't build for a range, you build for a specific resolution.
>
> No. You build for a range, and you test for a range otherwise you force
> your users to run the app for the specific setting.
> You can't force me to run an app in 800x600 just because that was the only
> resolution you wrote your app to handle.

I absolutly can and its done everyday. Go to abc.com, cbs.com, nbc.com or
virtually any other major web site. It was built for 800 x 600 regardless
of what your particular setting is. I'll go one step further than that,
look at the source code for all these sites and search the code for <TABLE>.
You'll find that this is how they are all built, not by absolutly
positioning everything.

> I'm sure that isn't you argument. It absolutely can't be.

It can be if you know something about developing a web UI. Go to cnn.com or
msnbc.com or any other major web site with your screen resolution set at 800
x 600 and you'll see that the UI was built specifically for that setting.
Change your setting to 1024 x 768 and you'll see that the page stays the
same but you now have extra white space on the right edge. The site wasn't
built for a range of resolutions, it was built for a specific resolution.
This is my point. It is just obvious that you don't have any experience
with this if you don't see that.

>
>> us more UI choices, we no longer need to have the user meet us, we can
>> meet the user.
> You just said you don't build apps for resolution ranges. You build for a
> specific resolution so exactly which user are you meeting?

The one that is the target of my application OR (as mentioned above) I can
build one UI that dynamicly adjusts for any resolution.

>
>> What?!! You've only been doing web application work for a few days?!!!
> I don't see why you should bother call my expertise into question. It has
> no relevance here.
> If i make a point, you cannot disregard it based on whether i am a student
> or
> 20 year veteran. Instead, discredit it based on the content of the matter
> and how i frame the argument.

I have done that. I've given you point by point descriptions of why Grid is
bad and Flow is good, but you've turned a deaf ear on all of the experience
and expertise of those who have struggled with this issue before you.
You've just responded with one basic point that says that you've built
applications that are supposed to look like a Windows application. You
haven't addressed the facts about the use of that application..That's just
ignorance.

> Name calling gets you no where in here.
> But it does show what position you are arguing from.

I am not trying to get anywhere "in here" and I never called you any names.
I said you are inexperienced and by your own admission, this is a fact, not
an insult. I said that your argument was hogwash. That's also not name
calling. It is a statment about your lack of knowledge (another fact) in
this area. I am trying to give you some very good advice based on years
actual experiences using both tecniques that we have discussed. I've been
clear as to what the issues are and you've already conceded that I'm right,
but then dismissed these issues and proclaimed that you were right
anyway....That tells me that you are stubborn and aren't really interested
in developing your skills.

>> This has nothing to do with our conversation.
> sure it does. Customers drive business. That's the bottom line.

LOL. And applications that don't work for the clients of those customers
generally don't get the developers of those applications more work. It IS
irrelevant what your app does or who you are building it for. If you are
building web pages, then they need to render in a browser on a monitor.
What's relevant is that we can't control what browser that will be and what
resolution that will be, so we build applications that ensure that they will
render the SAME in all environments. Now read this next part
carefully...GridLayout is not capable of doing that. It's not and that is a
fact. If you dispute this point, then you really don't have any idea of how
web UI rendering works.

>> Who says that this will happen using FlowLayout mode?! A control
>> wrapping to the next line down is not a Grid vs. Flow issue at all. It's
>> a matter of knowing how to code HTML properly.

> Are you serious? You are suggesting that I start coding in HTML to fix
> this issue?

Are YOU serious? Do you not realize that the basis for EVERY web page is
HTML? Do you really believe that you can be a good web developer and not
know or work with HTML?

> Take a moment to drop two controls on a webform, alternate the layouts and
> resize
> the browser. I guess you can hide behind the fact that everything boils
> down
> to HTML in a browser but you would be missing the whole point of the
> argument.

I have no idea what point you are even trying to make with your exercise
here. If you are trying to take us back to your "controls will wrap when
the browser is resized" point from earlier, then I'll repeat what I said
earlier. This is not a layout issue it is a fundamental issue of knowing
how to write good HTML. You call this "hiding" behind the FACT that
everything boils down to HTML. And, you say that this is missing the point,
but this is the EXACT point.

>
>> Again, this is irrelevant since it doesn't happen in FlowLayout mode
>> either.
> What? You are using humor right?

No, I'm talking about something that I guess you haven't learned how to
control in HTML.

>
>> Alvin, it is clear to me that you have very limited knowledge of HTML and
>> very limited experience in correctly testing the UI layer of a web
>> application.
> Name calling? You know i avoid these arguments because they are without
> merit.

What name did I call you? No, I stated (by your own admission) a FACT. You
have limited experience with the technologies you are trying to educate us
on.

> Please learn that even a student or a carpenter can make a point in a
> public forum and you should have the decency to only discredit based on
> the content of the argument.

You should have the presence of mind to be able to separate an insult from a
fact that you may not like to hear. Having little experience in an area is
not an insult or a name. You are also posting in a public forum that is
frequented mostly by folks that have much more experise and experience in
this area as you. What do you expect someone to tell you when they have the
knowledge and experience in this matter and they know you are mistaken? And
what would you make of someone who adamantly defends a position widely known
to be incorrect by a person with little experience in that area? Most
people would respond with someting like "I haven't encountered the problems
you are talking about yet, but thanks for the heads up." Instead, you've
basically just told us that we don't have a clue as to what we are talking
about, when clealy by your statements you show us that you are the one who
doesn't know the whole picture.

> I could very easily claim that I am a 20 year veteran, a student or a
> TRAINER who owns his own school!. I am neither by the way (but how can you
> tell?)

1. You told us so.
2. You make comments about what FlowLayout does that are incorrect.
3. You make comments about what GridLayout does that are incorrect.
4. You make comments that tell us that you aren't fully versed in HTML and
its importance.
5. You make comments that tell us that you don't fully understand the
ramifications of screen resolution.

> I get sick to my stomach when people like you think that who you are is
> important when framing an argument.
> I am expecting an apology by the way, for the name calling.

And as soon as I call you one, I'll give you one. Seriously Alvin, go back
and read what's been written here with an objective mind and you'll see that
you were not called names. You'll see that you told us you are
inexperienced and to be called that is not an insult. But to defend a
position you don't fully have knowledge of is just plain willfull ignorance.
That's a fact.

>
>> BUT FlowLayout will get you there faster and with less problems along the
>> way.
> you haven't supported that position thus far with anything but name
> calling.
>
>> with GridLayout then "more power to you", but you may want to listen to
>> the advice of those who have been doing this for a decade or so
> That's what its about? You need recognition for your years of development
> experience?

It's clear that you didn't even read any of my comments about the merits of
Grid vs. Flow. It's also obvious, you'd rather fight than learn.

> I don't. I learn from students and veterans alike. The source of the
> knowledge is not important to me.
> But the knowledge is.

You've proven here that that is not true.

>
> Anyway, it is clear you have degenerated an otherwise spirited discussion
> into name calling. And that's turning me off.
> You need to apologize and learn to keep it clean. You could end up working
> for me someday.

Hardly, since you can't advance yourself with the experience of others. You
also have a difficult time separating a fact from an insult - I've not
called you one name. I have called your technical knowledge and skills into
quesiton though and with good reason.

I wouldn't take medical advice from someone who just read a magazine article
about my medical condition. I'd want to talk with the person who has had
the training, knowledge and experience in that area. You have clearly shown
that you'd prefer to get your advice from the person with limited knowledge
and experience.

There's nothing else I can add to this for you. You will be doomed to fall
into the same web development traps that the rest of us have fallen into and
spend lots of time (and presumably your clients money) wondering why the
page isn't working properly.

The only thing a student really needs is a willingness to learn. Maybe you
have that in other areas, but you've shown very clearly that in this one,
you don't.

>
> --
> Regards,
> Alvin Bruney
> [ASP.NET MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx]
> Got tidbits? Get it here... http://tinyurl.com/27***
> "Scott M." <s-mar@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
> news:O%23GSMJdyEHA.3416@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>>
>> "Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
>> news:etLRZtcyEHA.4004@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>>>> an earlier post in this thread). Given that information, how can you
>>>> seriously say that building the whole UI in GridLayout is the better
>>>> approach for most UI development?!
>>>
>>> Never did say that. I said it was an option. You argue it should be used
>>> here and there.
>>
>> Actually, you DID say that (you said the following):
>>
>> "I'll concede that the only thing i've found that flow is good for is
>> screen
>> resolution issues. Now, the applications built with gridlayout mode
>> we will be problematic for the visually impaired since their resolutions
>> will cause a HUGE mess on screen. Also, users who are prone to
>> adjust their browser text size to the extreme settings may be mildly
>> affected by gridlayout."
>>
>> ...And guess what? These issues (resolution & text size) are applicable
>> to absolutely EVERY web application built. They are not exceptions to
>> the rule, they are the rule.
>>
>>> But your argument is not convincing. The large majority of desktops run
>>> a standard size screen resolution with just
>>> a few clients running outside that range. So using that as an argument
>>> to justify flowlayout doesn't cut it.
>>
>> Wow are you mis-informed! LOL
>>
>>> The vast majority of desktops use 800x600 thru 1280x1024. Gridlayout
>>> works just fine in these modes.
>>> So build your applications with that setting in mind and test for that
>>> resolution range.
>>
>> 800x600 thru 1280x1024 is a range. What you build (using GridLayout) for
>> one resolution will look very different in another. That is how you
>> approximate a client application. Also, you can't really say that
>> GridLayout works in one mode or another...GridLayout works in ANY mode,
>> the problem is when you are in a different mode than the one that the app
>> was designed for (which is the whole point).
>>
>>> That is why internet sites sometimes have a recommended resolution
>>> setting.
>>
>> The popularity of that idea stopped about 5 years ago. Very few sites
>> today require a user to change their resolution to meet the UI. Again,
>> this is the whole point. As UI's have become more complex and technology
>> has given us more UI choices, we no longer need to have the user meet us,
>> we can meet the user.
>>
>>> I have used GridLayout for ALL my UI development in the few days that I
>>> have been developing web applications.
>>
>> What?!! You've only been doing web application work for a few days?!!!
>> OMG!!! Why are we even having this conversation then? You are putting up
>> positions that have been tried and tested for many years (by the web
>> community and myself as well) and basically telling us all that in the
>> "few days" that you have been doing web development you've somehow
>> figured out that we're wrong!?
>>
>>> I have not had any problems with different browsers or resolution
>>> settings that I could not quickly adjust in code.
>>
>>> I build web applications that compete for and replace windows desktop
>>> applications.
>>> These customers require their interface to look and behave exactly like
>>> a windows application in form
>>
>> This has nothing to do with our conversation.
>>
>>> and function. If they shrink the browser size for instance, they don't
>>> want to see a server control flow to the next line.
>>
>> Who says that this will happen using FlowLayout mode?! A control
>> wrapping to the next line down is not a Grid vs. Flow issue at all. It's
>> a matter of knowing how to code HTML properly.
>>
>>> It doesn't do that in windows desktop and that is exactly their
>>> expectation.
>>
>> Again, this is irrelevant since it doesn't happen in FlowLayout mode
>> either.
>>
>>> Until these
>>> customer requirements change, that is what i will be giving the
>>> customer. It's their money and their product.
>>
>> And the sure do want to make sure that EVERYONE who uses their
>> application will experience the EXACT same UI. The GridLayout solution
>> won't do that, a properly designed FlowLayout will.
>>
>>> You have to take all that into consideration before you go blindly
>>> saying that FlowLayout is the best for most
>>> UI development because different problem domains require different
>>> options.
>>
>> Alvin, it is clear to me that you have very limited knowledge of HTML and
>> very limited experience in correctly testing the UI layer of a web
>> application. That's a dangerous place to be in if you want to defend a
>> position. If you had that experience it would be clear as day to you
>> that everything you have been saying is hogwash.
>>
>> You keep bringing up your customer's wants and needs and how I am
>> "blindly" saying that FlowLayout is the way to go. The truth is that
>> GridLayout causes problems that must be overcome and FlowLayout prevents
>> those problems in the first place. So, they both can be used to
>> accomplish the goal, BUT FlowLayout will get you there faster and with
>> less problems along the way. I've also said that absolute positioning of
>> particular controls here and there (CSS Level 2), not to be confused with
>> GridLayout mode (where ALL page content is absolutely positioned using
>> CSS Level 2) can be useful (when used properly).
>>
>> Of course you are entitled to your opinion and if you can get the job
>> done with GridLayout then "more power to you", but you may want to listen
>> to the advice of those who have been doing this for a decade or so and
>> can clearly look at both sides of this coin. You may even find that by
>> taking some advice, your job gets easier and your customers are happier.
>>
>
>

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