Re: Difference between a Command Button and a Label

Dear Bruce:

I didn't take that much offense at what you posted. It was informative and
useful. On reason for posting a Tip here is to get feedback and to improve
the Tip before it becomes published. I'd like to include some changes based
on your comments, which were certainly useful and intelligent. Your tone
was not as important to me as your careful expression of issues that do need
attending.

It is my desire to make friends here, and even if I do see things that are
inflamatory, I don't choose to reply in kind. Perhaps I will have made a
friend in you by doing this, which validates my approach, and reinforces it.

I really have seen a bit of flame in this thread, which just tells me I need
to expand and polish this tip before it goes any farther. Also, I need to
be clear as to who is targeted by a tip. This one was meant for those just
getting started in form design, not for those more accomplished. I should
put a section in the Tip for more advanced use, and include what has been
pointed out here, so the Tip can benefit a wider audience. Those using the
simple form of the tip can then look forward to progressing to more complex
methods as time goes along.

Tom Ellison


"BruceM" <bamoob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:%23tV1HDNMGHA.3944@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Tom, thanks for your courteous reply to what I see now was a
confrontational tone in my remarks. I really must apologize for that. I
did intend to point out that I was familiar with using a label as a
command button, as were the people from whom I borrowed the idea, so I
will admit I was puzzled by what I took to be a request for
acknowledgement. On another point, I have read your many informed replies
to questions in this forum, and I could have assumed that you are familiar
with Lebans' site. Also, I have to say that I honestly thought I was
replying to somebody whose name I did not recognize, perhaps because I
looked too hastily at the list of messages in my newsreader, and clicked
the reply button without looking more closely at the message. No matter
who posted, though, a courteous reply would have been more appropriate. I
am familiar with your postings in this forum, and would certainly not have
suggested that you do some research, because I know that you are well
aware of how to search newsgroups.

As for practical matters, I hadn't thought about the zero-width text box.

It is quite curious, and rather frustrating, that Microsoft does not allow
for colored command buttons. As you point out, there is certainly
interest in having that functionality. It is one of many points about
which they could probably do something if they cared to take notice, but
the way in which thinking is stirred at Microsoft is to me an inscrutable
mystery. I do not agree with the thinking that says since gray is the
default it's good enough, but we all make choices. I'm sure some of mine
are questionable to somebody with other priorities.

Thanks again for the kind tone of your reply.

"Tom Ellison" <tellison@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:%23%23GoiZMMGHA.2064@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Dear Bruce:

Thanks for your excellent comments.

You cannot place the focus on a label. Hence, you also cannot tab
through it. You can, however, tab though a text box with a zero width
(hence it is invisible without being Visible = False). The events of
that text box can function just as the events of a command button would,
making the action appear as though the label "has the focus" and can be
"clicked" with Enter. If such functionality is essential, it's not hard
to implement this. Or, you could just use a text box and inhibit any
typing in it, instead of using a label. I chose the label because of
simplicity.

I, too, am slightly color blind, blue-green. I tend to avoid those
combinations as they may be difficult to distinguish. I've never heard
of yellow-pink color blindness (which are the first colors I tend to use)
but it's still a good point you make. Most of my colored labels are gray
and yellow, and occasionally pink as well.

The point of a tip isn't to assert "here is something new" but to inform
those unfamiliar with a possibility. That's what I'd like to convey with
my brief article. Some of my friends will see this here, and may choose
to post it on their web sites. It's a good thing to open it up for
comment, and get other good ideas. Some of the responses here show that
making colors available on a command button would be helpful. That may
even stir some thinking at Microsoft.

Mr. Leban's work is, as usual, outstanding. The point is not that there
are not alternatives. The first point is to expose the functionality of
putting color options on something you can click on. Which one of many
options is used to do this is not the main thrust of my suggestions. I
believe my article should also make reference to such alternatives. It
is certainly not the point that using a label is the only way to do this,
but that there is utility in doing something like this.

Thanks,
Tom Ellison


"BruceM" <bamoob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ejdbRuJMGHA.3556@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The idea of using a label as a command button has been around for quite
some time. A Google groups search should find quite a few entries on
this very topic. Some go into additional detail about using the Mouse
Down and Mouse Up events to simulate the look of a command button when
it is clicked. Some of the postings will be mine, but I do not claim
(nor have I even for one instant considered claiming) any sort of
authorship, nor did the person or people from whom I borrowed the idea.
You would do well, before claiming authorship or any sort of
intellectual property consideration, to conduct some research.
While it is true that a label will give you some formatting options not
available with command buttons, there are also limitations. For one
thing, a label can't be in your tab order, and label events can only be
triggered by the mouse. A label does not have a Got Focus, Lost Focus,
Enter, or Exit event (and maybe others, but these are the ones I can
recall offhand). These may not matter, but there are certainly
significant differences between the two types of control.
A Google search will reveal a number of places where you can download
free command button graphics that can be placed as pictures on command
buttons. I also use standard graphics for custom navigation buttons,
etc. I will just observe that my opinion about whether or not to use
colors, graphics, etc. is not necessarily the last word. Sometimes
there needs to be something other than gray. I would also like to
comment, as a person with color deficiency in my vision (aka color
blindness) that some color combinations are particularly troublesome,
such as medium red or green lettering on a textured gray background, or
some combinations of green and red together.
A graphic on a command button will leave the (gray) edges of the button
as a border. If you are troubled by that, and if you are satisfied with
a label's limitations as a command button, that is certainly an option.
For full command button functionality along with color options, one
choice may be found on Lebans site:
http://www.lebans.com/cmdbutton.htm

"Tom Ellison" <tellison@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:%23D7SYBJMGHA.2012@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Dear Keith:

This is a tip. You are certainly permitted to take it or not.

I understand your concern about consistency of color coding. This can
be overcome by allowing the users to select colors that correspond with
their preferences, and saving them in a table. The users could then
standardize colors as they wish, especially if they have become
accustomed to a given scheme. That's actually a nice enhancement
possibility I hadn't considered before. If you like, I'll credit you
in a later version of this article for inspiring that. May I quote
your question:

"what happens if the users get used to one developer's colour coding
and then are faced with a different set from another?"

I would think the answer is to build an array and store in that the
selected colors for a few different label button types. If this is
done when the application opens, it would take no time to assign them
as each form opens and functions, resulting in those color changes.

I am not asking for a patent on an idea here, but on a modest level of
authors rights as a courtesy. The only consideration I ask is with
respect to duplicating what I have written, that I be given the
priviledge of modifying it or withdrawing it, and that I be named in
credit for writing it (not owning it). I do not think those who might
want it on a web site would have any problem with that. Several have
done so with other articles, and always gladly credit me by name.

Tom Ellison


"Keith Wilby" <here@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:43f06600$1_1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Tom Ellison" <tellison@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:eaptFLIMGHA.3276@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I have found that, to attract a user's attention, coloring a label is
quite superior to having a command button's nicer shape. For
example, in the header of forms, I place command buttons colored
yellow. My users know these buttons expose combo boxes used to
filter the form, and they change to pale green when a filter is
active. Click them again and the filter is removed, the combo box is
made invisible, and it is yellow again. This becomes quickly
intuitive to my users. Usually after being shown only once how to use
one they know how to use additional ones without asking.

I recommend you carefully consider having a standard set of colors
for labels, and use them instead of command buttons.

The buttons in my apps are the default grey and I see no reason to
change them. They all have legends to identify their purpose to the
end user. I once flirted with different colours but IMO you end up
with a gaudy mess. Colour is also not much use if any of your users
have any degree of colour blindness. And what happens if the users
get used to one developer's colour coding and then are faced with a
different set from another?


Tom Ellison

If anyone would care to post this to a web site, you have my
permission, providing you notify me here or by email and give me the
URL of the web site and an email address where I can request changes
to this message. You must attribute this to me, please, and give me
access to repair or enhance it. You may, of course, remove it from
your site without notice, though I'd prefer to know why, if you
please.


Why do you think that you have some sort of copyright over the use of
colour coding? I'm not trying to be hostile, just wondered.

Keith.











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